Hodinkee article on Hamilton electric

[n-theory]

Not new info for this illustrious forum but a nice plug for Rene's book at the end
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-a ... ered-watch

[retroworx]

Looks like they are showing Pacers when they are referencing Venturas.

[n-theory]

It's the exact same watch right?

[retroworx]

I confess I have not been a Hodinkee watcher, but for me, they have just lost tons of credibility: An article on the first retailed Electric watch and they show the wrong one??

ETA: To their credit, they have made the correction. . . .

[hamiltonelectric]

A few errors notwithstanding, I'm glad to see a site that normally focuses on modern high-end Swiss watches pay some attention to the past. And of course I appreciate the shout-out for my book. But I see they didn't credit my website for the picture of the Pacers, which was ascribed to someone else.

I winced when I saw the closeup of the 500 movement:



Those contact wires are painfully mangled! And what is up with the shock jewel?? That is not at all correct.

[Nookster]

It's fun to watch the expert at work!!

[diveboy]

here we go again....

The World's First Battery Powered Watch in 1957 ? yeh right.....

[diveboy]

yeh ok I did.

[coronado]

here we go again....

The World's First Battery Powered Watch in 1957 ? yeh right.....

When was the world's first battery powered watch?

[retroworx]

here we go again....

The World's First Battery Powered Watch in 1957 ? yeh right.....

When was the world's first battery powered watch?

Oh, no, don't get him started!

[diveboy]

First (all puns intended) let's look at the meaning of the word.

First
coming before all others in time or order; earliest; 1st.

Hamilton announced thiers in 1957.

Elgin & LIP both announced and showed battery powered wristwatches on the 19th of March 1952 in Chicago & Paris.

By the definition of the word first, Hamilton can't be first to have the world's first battery powered wristwatch can they?

Can Hamilton have the first retail battery powered watch? YES!

But it's impossible they had the first battery powered wristwatch as both Elgin & LIP publicly displayed theirs in 1952, 5 years earlier.

Sorry, for Hamilton to be first, the definition of the word 'first' has to change or the claim of being first by Hamilton has to be changed.

Either way, the first battery powered wristwatch has to go to Elgin & LIP.

It took 10 years since the Smithsonian published a book for them to agree that they got it wrong in their statement of Hamilton was first, they now use the term "Hamilton, one of the first" in their articles. Why would they change if they were correct?

https://www.instagram.com/p/BIjixbBhmNm/

[JerseyMo]

so when is the earliest known experimentation with using a battery to power a movement?

I recall reading an article that this occurred back in the 1930's? does that seem possible?

[retroworx]

I recall reading an article that this occurred back in the 1930's? does that seem possible?

As I understand it, the challenge wasn't so much getting a battery to power a movement, but getting a battery small enough to fit in a watch case and power the movement with reliability...

[diveboy]

The battery powered watch (as in pocket watch) was early even Elgin had one before WW2 (we found reference to one in our research that was never shown outside the research department).

It's earlier than the 1930s but I don't have an exact date so will refrain from guessing.

And Susan, your spot on. It was all about the battery. LIP had a kidney shaped battery they developed which was prone to leaking or exploding at will.

Elgin had one before 1952 made from indium which could be made in any shape needed, could power the watch for 1-2 years and would only lose power at the end when it died.

The other watch companies didn't have anything at that stage in battery technology that they could use.

Happy to say, those indium batteries made back then by Elgin are stil intact and haven't leaked today.

Elgin didn't use this battery when they released it for sale, instead they used a W1 made by Mallory to their specifications and of the approx 25 of them I have, none have leaked either.

[coronado]

Hamilton announced thiers in 1957.

Elgin & LIP both announced and showed battery powered wristwatches on the 19th of March 1952 in Chicago & Paris.

So, is it based on who announced first? Or who produced first? When did Elgin and LIP produce their first battery powered wristwatch? When did Hamilton? Does anybody have the dates for each?

[retroworx]

So, is it based on who announced first? Or who produced first? When did Elgin and LIP produce their first battery powered wristwatch? When did Hamilton? Does anybody have the dates for each?

Produce prototype or retail production? This is usually wear the debate with Michael leads. . . .

[vintagehamiltons]

Hamilton was first to market, so they're they win. Just like Edison vs. Tesla.

[diveboy]

Hamilton was first to market

Correct. no argument there.

heres two articles published at the time for each of the watches. interesting the key points use on both articles ? light bulbs, the coil thickness and in other articles of the time, the reference to the first basic change of 500 years is also used. If these were published today, we would see a nice court case going on.

Lebanon Daily News March 19th 1952



The News Herald January 3rd 1957


but if you still believe Hamilton were first with the world's first battery powered watch, don't let me or the truth burst your bubble.

[coronado]

heres two articles published at the time for each of the watches. interesting the key points use on both articles ? light bulbs, the coil thickness and in other articles of the time, the reference to the first basic change of 500 years is also used. If these were published today, we would see a nice court case going on.

but if you still believe Hamilton were first with the world's first battery powered watch, don't let me or the truth burst your bubble.

Okay, your original post makes sense now. Elgin was the first to announce, almost 5 years before Hamilton.

I did notice that the article about the Elgin that Elgin's president said that so far only a laboratory model had been produced. Did Hamilton have a laboratory model at the same time or before Elgin did... i.e. 1952?

Seems well-accepted that Hamilton began selling an electric wristwatch to consumers in 1957. Did Elgin ever get beyond the laboratory model mentioned in the 1952 article? Did it bring its version to market and if so, when?

One of my customers has what he says are some Elgin electric WW prototypes. I need to check with him to see what he knows about Elgin's electric WW efforts in the 1950s.

[diveboy]

Hamilton had something but Hamilton didn't light the fire until the Elgin & Lip annoucement. Bulova asked Hertzel to review and investigate and then decided it was no more accurate than the watch of the time and went the tuning fork road.

Yes Elgin released their electronic in 1961 for resale, LIP in 1958.

So Yes (and I totally agree) Hamilton were first to sell a battery powered wristwatch.

Elgin & LIP were first with a battery powered wristwatch.

for those that don't agree, let me phrase it another

America was first to the moon.
Russia was first to put a man in space.

See what I'm saying ? you can't say America was first in space just cause they were the first to the moon but did they win the space race ? sure.

[hamiltonelectric]

Hamilton's first electric watch prototype, and first patent, was 1947.

[retroworx]

Hamilton's first electric watch prototype, and first patent, was 1947.

Hallelujah.

[coronado]

Hamilton had something (emphasis added by coronado) but Hamilton didn't light the fire until the Elgin & Lip annoucement. Bulova asked Hertzel to review and investigate and then decided it was no more accurate than the watch of the time and went the tuning fork road.

Yes Elgin released their electronic in 1961 for resale, LIP in 1958.

So Yes (and I totally agree) Hamilton were first to sell a battery powered wristwatch.

Elgin & LIP were first with a battery powered wristwatch. (emphasis added by coronado)

Hamilton's first electric watch prototype, and first patent, was 1947.

Based on the information posted here so far... Hamilton had a prototype and patent in 1947 and was first to market in 1957. And Elgin and LIP had a laboratory model and announcement in 1952, then watches for sale in 1961 and 1958, respectively.

Did Elgin or LIP have a prototype or patent before Hamilton did in 1947? If not, can we really say "Elgin & LIP were first with a battery powered wristwatch," if all that they had in 1952 was an announcement of a laboratory model, and then watches for sale after Hamilton?

This is not a rhetorical exercise for me... I actually curious about the timeline of the various companies research and development of the electric wristwatch.

[diveboy]

What are we measuring by ? patents, patents + products, patents + products + date of sale or idea ?

if its patents

Then patent US1522178A filed by Phillipp Favre-Bulle Maurice on the 21 Aug 1923 beats everyone we have mentioned but we all know there was no way it's a battery powered wristwatch, so do we exclude him in the race to be first ?

then we have this pocket watch which is estimated before 1910 by Pieter Doensen and is a "product" but again, not a battery powered wristwatch, so do exclude this in the race to be first ?



Using patents with Elgin to date is also a very misleading exercise as Elgin like Kodak only filed for a patent when they considered the technology obsolete or already superseded.

Ever seen the patent for M56-B?

LIP took a patent out on March 19th 1952, Elgin didn't bother to file until April 1952 (or wasn't ready to, which is another story).

The main thing to date the Elgin project is the size of the watch. The main requirement issued to the research department was it be no bigger than the current size including the battery which was a conversation between George Ensign & Albert Potter between 1945 to 1948 at some point but that article also references that they started research in the 1930's but shelved it at the outbreak of WW2.

So while LIP went bigger, Elgin stayed the same size as was current and that's why we see the watch of tomorrow cased in the 4902 Henslee case in 1952.

So let's compare



LIP R27, Elgin 722
Hamilton 505, Elgin 910 (the 725 was the same size)

People assume the 722 was in the watch of tomorrow, it wasn't but something similar was.

Now for those of you who have not read Watch by Pieter Doensen (referenced above) Here's a quote in reference to patents and the electronic watch

15th April 1952

Application for a USA patent no. 2,865,163 on an 'Electrically-powered Time Device' is filed by Elgin. It was the world's first application for a complete electric wrist watch, that came into production.

Hamilton's patent from 1947 never went into production, so can we accept that theory ? they patent something but release another thing that looks nothing the same ? (I can't accept that)

So lets boil it down to statements

Who had a working realiable battery ?
LIP - 1952 - they had their kidney shaped battery that liked to leak and explode at random
Elgin - 1952 - had the microcell made from indium and was stable and lasted 2 years
Hamilton - 1956 (I assume 1956 as they demonstrated a battery powered wristwatch in june 1956) (maybe Rene can clarify for us ?)

Who was first to file a patent ?
Phillipp Favre-Bulle Maurice 1923
Hamilton 1947
LIP March 1952
Elgin April 1952

Who was first to file a patent and put into production ?
Elgin April 1952

Who demonstrated battery powered wristwatch and when ?
Elgin March 1952
LIP March 1952
Hamilton June 1956

Who released a battery powered wristwatch and when ?
Hamilton 1957
LIP 1958
Elgin 1961

Who had the worlds first battery powered wristwatch ?
Elgin & LIP 1952

Who sold the worlds first battery powered wristwatch ?
Hamilton 1957

[retroworx]

Now for those of you who have not read Watch by Pieter Doensen (referenced above) Here's a quote in reference to patents and the electronic watch

I'm staying out of this one, but I do have a copy of this out-of-print book available, LOL. PM if interested.

watch book cover.jpg (140.91 KiB) Viewed 1695 times