1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

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afire
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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#11 Post by afire » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:59 pm

tse wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:30 pm
The case is Wadsworth.
Then disregard my comments. That's a separate Fahys-specific debate.
Real men wear small watches.

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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#12 Post by tse » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:57 pm

I've been trying to attach a photo that shows clearly that the middle section, which I have polished with sunshine polishing cloth, is yellow gold. For some reason the photo refuses to go through.
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two-tone-Perry-small.gif
two-tone-Perry-small.gif (366.62 KiB) Viewed 729 times
Tom Eanes

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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#13 Post by HamiltonIllinois » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:15 pm

afire wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:18 am
HamiltonIllinois wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:12 pm
All of this said, there has never been a discussion of 2-tone Perrys (that came out about 5 years later and are not solid gold).
The Square B and Perry coexisted for one year, 1931. Is the Perry a Fahys-cased model?

What would be helpful is to collect serial numbers of seemingly two-tone watches. If they're all close together, then that would support the defect theory. But seeing as they turn up so infrequently, that seems unlikely.
I've never heard any discussion of Hamilton selling 2-tone gold filled cases back in 1931. The only question about 2-tone cases related to solid gold Geometric examples. I still think this example is a special made (or special order) watch.
Rick
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scio me nihil scire or scio me nescire

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coronado
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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#14 Post by coronado » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:43 pm

I've had a white Perry just like this one.

If you compare your watch to a yellow Perry, you will see that the center section of your watch is not yellow like a yellow watch, even though it is a different color than the bezel and caseback.

The center section of the Perry I owned was a very pale pinkish/yellow. If I recall correctly, the underlying base metal of the center section is brass, whereas the underlying base metal of the bezel and caseback are a white metal. That may account for the different tone of "white" on the center section.

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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#15 Post by tse » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:26 pm

mrtoad wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:13 pm
My impression is that this is an all-white watch. Look at the picture of the midsection with the movement, the one labelled "6205d" on the auction. The part that is normally covered by the back looks white, while the exposed parts, like the backs of the lugs, are slightly discolored.
The "part the is normal covered by the back" is the base metal of the midsection. Looks like nickel to me but I have no way of knowing. In any event it is white but it not gold of any color, for the obvious reason.
Tom Eanes

"Don't force it, get a bigger hammer."

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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#16 Post by tse » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:38 pm

I don't have a yellow Perry to compare this to but I have compared it to several (polished) 14K YGF Wadsworth cases in my collection and the color is less intense, although I would not call it pinkish and it is definitely not white. I'll do some more polishing and compare again.

The base metal of the midsection is not brass, it is white metal, looks like nickel to me. In "any case" it is hard to imagine the base metal affecting the color of the gold layer, gold being relatively inert and opaque.

My original question was, Do I have a franken? I think Dan answered that with his reply about the serial numbers that match.

Thanks,
Tom Eanes

"Don't force it, get a bigger hammer."

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coronado
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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#17 Post by coronado » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:42 am

No, your watch is not a Franken. It is an all-white Perry. Here is another just like yours:
PerryW.jpg
PerryW.jpg (165.44 KiB) Viewed 687 times

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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#18 Post by tse » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:10 pm

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WGF perry.jpeg
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Tom Eanes

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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#19 Post by mrtoad » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:25 pm

The midsection of a thee-piece case may or may not be of the same material as the bezel and back. The Illinois Consul, for example, is found sometimes with all three pieces in 14K solid gold and sometimes with solid bezel and back but base metal midsection. In the latter event, it is always so marked. As for Hamilton's practice with gold-filled watches like the Perry, I've never seen anything except having all three parts in the same material, in this case gold filled. Of course, the thick midsection is made differently from the thin stamped bezel and back, but it is gold filled all the way across. It's not just plated on the lugs. It's not plated at all: gold filled is a lamination process. What you see in the parts that are normally covered by the bezel and back has the same treatment as the exposed parts like the lugs. The only place you see the base substrate is inside the hole where the movement is mounted.

What does happen is that the exposed parts tarnish much more than the covered parts. Yes, 14K gold tarnishes. It's an alloy, and while pure gold (24K) is almost chemically inert, the other metals in an alloy are not inert and so alloy parts do tarnish when they are exposed to perspiration, chemicals in the air, etc., as the exposed parts of the midsection are. It may take more than polishing cloths to remove tarnish, but it may not be worth the effort. When a midsection is already showing brassing along the edges and pitting elsewhere, it may be best just to leave it as it is. After all these watches are over 80 years old; for some of us, seeing evidence of their age is part of the charm of collecting them.

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Re: 1931 Perry - WGF/YGF?

#20 Post by HamiltonIllinois » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:09 pm

mrtoad wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:25 pm
The midsection of a thee-piece case may or may not be of the same material as the bezel and back. The Illinois Consul, for example, is found sometimes with all three pieces in 14K solid gold and sometimes with solid bezel and back but base metal midsection. In the latter event, it is always so marked.
Just to clarify, an Illinois Consul, even when stamped as the center being "Nickel", still has a pretty thick "chunk" of solid gold in the lugs and outer areas of the center case but with nickel spacer in the center directly around the movement. I have a center piece where the gold has been removed that demonstrates this pretty well. I shared a photo of it a few years ago, I am including pics here also.
Rick
..................................................
scio me nihil scire or scio me nescire

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