ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

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Mugea
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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#11 Post by Mugea » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:13 am

Hi Namespetra,

interesting observation regarding the etched numbers. I will examine the case back again more closely for the exact number - but I doubt, these were applied by ZentRa. Looks more like a watch maker's mark to me. On other "ZentRamiltons" there are no etched numbers present, but the typical Hamilton case number of that era. Som enew discovered ZentRas with Hamilton movements and Hamilton case numbers are:

60029-4, Hamilton grade 60 (no link available)

60032-4, manual wind, no details known about the movement:
http://uhrerbe.com/unt/32991-zentra_sav ... old__.html

61001-4, manual wind, no details known about the movement:
http://uhrerbe.com/unt/44200-zentra_sav ... ufzug.html

64031-4, Hamilton 64A:
http://uhrerbe.com/unt/31564-zentra_sav ... swiss.html

64049-3 (stainless steel case) - no details about the movement known (probably Hamilton 64A), no link available

64049-4, Hamilton 64A:
https://uhrforum.de/zentra-savoy-automa ... mm-t282650

Regards

Martin

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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#12 Post by Mugea » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:45 am

Here’s my newest addition:
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It’s a ZentRa Savoy, what’s a re-branded Hamilton 60038-4 with a grade 60. In next to perfect condition.

The “ZentRamiltons” I’ve seen so far are:

53014-4, Hamilton grade 53
53018-4, manual wind, no other info available
60015-4, ZentRa number 7008, manual wind, no other info available, crown with H logo
60029-4, Hamilton grade 60
60032-4, manual wind, no details known about the movement
60038-4, manual wind, grade 60 - shown above
61001-4, manual wind, no details known about the movement
62009-4, Hamilton 64A (?) (manual, date)
63012-4, Hamilton Grade 63 (based on ETA 2451), ZentRa number 7007 – shown above
64031-4, Hamilton 64A
64040-3, Hamilton Supercompressor, grade 64A
64048-4 ZentRa (Fontainebleau B), yellow gold plated, no details known about the movement
64049-3 (stainless steel case) - no details about the movement known (probably Hamilton 64A

Regards
Martin

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Namespetra
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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#13 Post by Namespetra » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:58 pm

That's a very classy and clean looking watch!

My 61008-4 runs a 61 caliber movement.

Your research into ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton is revealing an entire collection of models. Keep up the good work looking into this German-American-Swiss horological partnership.
Tempus fugit; Memento mori.

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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#14 Post by Mugea » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:25 am

Namespetra wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:58 pm
That's a very classy and clean looking watch!

My 61008-4 runs a 61 caliber movement.

Your research into ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton is revealing an entire collection of models. Keep up the good work looking into this German-American-Swiss horological partnership.
Oh, I totally forgot to ad yours (and 64049-4) in my overview! So, here's the complete list:

53014-4, Hamilton grade 53
53018-4, manual wind, no other info available
60015-4, ZentRa number 7008, manual wind, no other info available, crown with H logo
60029-4, Hamilton grade 60
60032-4, manual wind, no details known about the movement
60038-4, manual wind, grade 60 - shown above
61001-4, manual wind, no details known about the movement
61008-4, manual wind, grade 61
62009-4, Hamilton 64A (?) (manual, date)
63012-4, Hamilton Grade 63 (based on ETA 2451), ZentRa number 7007 – shown above
64031-4, Hamilton 64A
64040-3, Hamilton Supercompressor, grade 64A
64048-4 ZentRa (Fontainebleau B), yellow gold plated, no details known about the movement, probably grade 64A
64049-3 (stainless steel case) - no details about the movement known (probably Hamilton 64A)
64049-4, manual wind, date, Hamilton 64A

Thank you for your kind words! I’ll keep searching. In some days you’ll read some interesting facts about my ZentRa Fontainbleau B…..

Regards

Martin

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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#15 Post by Mugea » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:52 am

And another ZentRa Savoy, 60016-2, ZentRa Ref. No. 7006, gold plated, manual wind, Hamilton grade 60 :

Image

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This one is interesting because of the case number 60016-2.

Image

A “dash 2” end number is a rare bird. Normal would be a dash 3 (stainless steel) or a dash 4 (gold plated). In another thread (dealing with six digit plus dash case numbers)

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4187&p=30162&hilit=dash#p30162

Dave wrote:

"The final number after the dash seems to indicate case material. xxxxxx-3 is stainless. xxxxxx-4 is electroplate. xxxxxx-14 is micron plated."

Yes, that’s my observation too. Nevertheless, in the relating 4 or 5 ditis + dash thread:

http://www.vintagewatchforums.com/viewt ... 6&start=10

there three two “dash 2” model, i. e.

60007-2 (photo vanbished)
63022-2 /stainless steel model)
683003-2 (stainless steel)

Now, my ZentRa 60016-2 is a normal electroplated model:

Image


The same marking between the upper lugs is present on a Hamilton Fontainebleau I bought recently (to avoid misunderstandings: it’s a Hamilton and it’s a normal Fontainebleau, not the B variation):

Image

While the Fontainebleau is a “dash 4” model (64047-4), both the Fontainebleau and the 60016-2 have the very same gold plating. So: why a “dash 2” ???

BTW: this sort of marking should be present on every Swiss made and gold plated Hamilton. Simply because it was mandatory to Swiss Law to mark plated metal ware this way:

1/ the word “PLAQUE”
2/ the type of plating: “G” stands for “Galvano” = electroplating
3/ the thickness of the plating: in this case 20 microns or 20 micrometers
4/ the brand/trademark of the responsible factory (in this case: the H logo).

And: since the revision of the law in 1995 it is forbidden to mention the gold content: since 1995 only 14K gold plating is allowed.

Ah, since my last post I discovered some more “ZentRamiltons”, i. a. two with a solid 14K yellow gold case. And these have a “dash 6” ending…..

Here’s the updated list:

53007-4, manual wind, no second hand, not other info
53014-4, Hamilton grade 53
53018-4, manual wind, no other info available
60015-4, ZentRa number 7008, manual wind, no other info available, crown with H logo
60016-2, ZentRa Ref. No. 7006, gold plated, manual wind, Hamilton grade 60
60019-6, 14K yellow Gold, manual wind, sweep second, no other info
60029-4, Hamilton grade 60
60030-4, ZentRa ref. 7012, Hamilton grade 60
60032-4, manual wind, no details known about the movement
60038-4, manual wind, grade 60 - shown above
61001-4, manual wind, no details known about the movement
61003-6, 14K yellow gold, Hamilton grade 61
61008-4, manual wind, grade 61
62009-4, Hamilton 64A (?) (manual, date)
63012-4, Hamilton Grade 63 (based on ETA 2451), ZentRa number 7007 – shown above
63019-3, ZentRa Ref. 7012, Automatic, Hamilton grade 63A
63029-4, Automatic, Hamilton grade63A
64021-4, ZentRa Ref. 7006, Automatic, Date, no other info
64031-3, Stainless Steel, ZentRa Ref. 7012, Automatic, Hamilton grade63A
64031-4, Hamilton 64A
64040-3, Hamilton Supercompressor, grade 64A
64048-3, Fontainebleau B, Stainless Steel, Patent Application number 3368/66, crown aftermarket
64048-4 ZentRa (Fontainebleau B), yellow gold plated, no details known about the movement yet, probably grade 64A, Patent Application number 3368/66
64049-3 (stainless steel case) - no details about the movement known (probably Hamilton 64A)
64049-4, manual wind, date, Hamilton 64A

Total: 25 different Hamilton models sold under the ZentRa brand. I wonder, how many different models there were.

Regards

Martin

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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#16 Post by hamiltonelectric » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:13 pm

Fantastic research and incredibly valuable information. Thanks so much!

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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#17 Post by Mugea » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:58 am

Another ZentRa Savoy - this time, a 60040-3

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The watch is interesting in one point: it's one of the very few where a Hamilton counterpart with the very same case number 60040-3 is known to exist:

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6395&p=45700

And who's the owner of this Hamilton? "Namespetra", the man who started this thread. Go figure! He gave me permission to use his photos for a side-by-side comparison (Hamilton on left, ZentRa on right):

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So, there are some minor differences – beside “ZentRa Savoy” instead of “Hamilton” of course:

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- No Hamilton inscription on the back of the case, no H logo inside the case.

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- The movement of the Hamilton comes with the HYL import code, with "UNADJ" and with "HAMILTON" engraved - all this isn't present on the movement of the ZentRa.

Regarding the HYL code: none of the "ZentRamiltons" I've seen so far has this code. And I assume, no Swiss made Hamilton for the European market (mostly the UK, I guess) will have this HYL code what was only necessary for exports to the US. So, the absence of the HYL code could indicate a watch initially sold outside the US.

Next: the serial numbers (SN). I'm currently aware of three Hamilton 60040-3. Serial numbers of these:

1,466,252
1,466,697
1,466,946

Serial number of the ZentRa 60040-3 is

1,391,913

So, the SN of the ZentRa is considerably lower than the SNs of the Hamiltons. I assume the reason is: the ZentRa 60040-3 was marketed in Germany (much) earlier than the Hamiltons in the US. Maybe a kind of a market test?

I like to show another ZentRa ad with a printing date of 1967:

Image

A little arrogant – but hey, this is about a Hamilton! :mrgreen:

In “Timely Topics” of May 09, 1966, page 1 I found some interesting information about a visit of members of the German company Max Anton Gerl at the Bienne plant of Hamilton Switzerland:

Image

I’m not sure for 100% but I’m pretty sure, the Gerl company worked for ZentRa, as a watch dealer company “Gerl & Schipper” in Cologne definitely was an important part of ZentRa’s purchasing. And the Max Anton Gerl company probably was there in Bienne to negotiate about purchasing Hamilton watches for the German market.

Time frame: I’m not sure, but it seems to me ZentRa bought Hamiltons from 1966 until 1969, maybe only in 1967 and 1968. The Savoy brand was ZentRa’s top line; only Swiss movements or complete watches were used. Before 1966 you can find i. a. watches with Huguenin markings, but also other brands like Gubelin (Gübelin). Later (1971) already electronic movements are present in the Savoy line having nothing to do with Hamilton.

Regards

Martin

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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#18 Post by Namespetra » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:38 pm

Martin, your detailed research is impressive. Your contribution to the topic of the ZentRa-Hamilton relationship is valuable material for VWF since it exists nowhere else online.

I'd like to know in which European countries Hamilton marketed their watches. Is it possible they distributed Hamilton branded watches only among the English speaking market and Switzerland? It appears that Hamilton through their Swiss operations elected to partner with ZentRa to access the West German market in the mid to late 1960s. It does not appear that a clear effort was made by ZentRa to advertise their relationship with Hamilton in their Savoy line. It would be curious to see Hamilton adds in languages other than English!

And by the way, I do have a briar pipe but I haven't smoked it while wearing my ZentRa watch. Now I'm inspired to do so!
Tempus fugit; Memento mori.

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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#19 Post by Mugea » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:51 am

Update:
Recently I bought another ZentRa Savoy – this time, with box and guarantee passport.
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Still_01_1600x1200.jpg
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Still_01_1600x1200.jpg (399.5 KiB) Viewed 592 times

The new ZentRa has a ZentRa number 7010 and a Hamilton number 60024-4.

The watch looks like this:

ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_01_1024x768.jpg
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ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_04_1024x767.jpg
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Tucked inside is a Hamilton grade 60 (ETA 2390):
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_07_1019x768.jpg
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_07_1019x768.jpg (159.56 KiB) Viewed 592 times

The box:
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Schachtel_01_1024x768.jpg
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Schachtel_01_1024x768.jpg (67.13 KiB) Viewed 592 times
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Schachtel_04_1024x768.jpg
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ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Schachtel_06_1024x767.jpg
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Schachtel_06_1024x767.jpg (62.43 KiB) Viewed 592 times

Unfortunately, the watch holder is missing. On the other side, the matching guarantee passport is present:
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Garantie-Pass_01_538x768.jpg
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Garantie-Pass_01_538x768.jpg (83.34 KiB) Viewed 592 times
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Garantie-Pass_02_1024x745.jpg
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Garantie-Pass_02_1024x745.jpg (169 KiB) Viewed 592 times

The passport was issued exactly on this watch (ZentRa Ref. 7010 / Hamilton No. 60024-4) on 18. November 1965. At least, I do see there a „5“, but it also could be an „8“

ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Garantie-Pass_02_Detail_912x768.jpg
ZentRa-Savoy_60024-4_Garantie-Pass_02_Detail_912x768.jpg (160.97 KiB) Viewed 592 times

Currently, I’m aware of 39 different „ZentRamiltons“, which are:
Table1.jpg
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Table2.jpg
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You may wonder about the presence of duplicates of ZentRa Ref. numbers. For example, there are five 7012s:
Table3.jpg
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The key is the ZentRa system. They grouped several models to families; they all have the very same four digit number on the back. But in the catalogs, the numbering system is a little bit mire sophisticated:

ZentRa model numbering system (according to two catalogs I own):

119-xxxx: Automatic, Date, gold plated
118-xxxx: Automatic, Date, stainless steel
114-xxx: manual wind, date, gold plated
19-xxxx: Automatic, no Date, gold plated
18-xxxx: Automatic, no Date, stainless steel
14-xxxx: manual wind, no date, gold plated
16-xxxx: manual wind, no date, stainless steel
11-xxxx: manual wind, no date, Profectus (a kind of a white metal alloy)

157-xxxx: Automatic, Date, 14K solid gold
57-xxxx: Automatic, no Date, 14K solid gold
55-xxxx: manual wind, 14K solid gold

Seems to me, that only on the early (1965?) Savoys are ZentRa Ref. numbers present (7020 currently is the highest I’m aware of) – later, there’s only the Hamilton number present.

Here’s another pair of ZentRa Savoys – no ZentRa number present, but only the Hamilton case numbers 63029-4 (on left) and 61002-4 (right). Unfortunately, I don’t know the ZentRa numbers of these two beauties. They are not in the catalogs I own.
ZentRa-Savoy_63029-4_u_61002-4_01_1024x768.jpg
ZentRa-Savoy_63029-4_u_61002-4_01_1024x768.jpg (75.84 KiB) Viewed 592 times

Well, at least 61002-4 does have a Hamilton counterpart:

viewtopic.php?t=10763

Guess, who own’s it? Yes, Namespetra, who started this thread.....

Regards

Martin

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Re: ZentRa Savoy by Hamilton

#20 Post by Namespetra » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:16 pm

Wow! So nice to discover that my Hamilton 61002-4 has a ZentRa Savoy cousin.

That box set ZentRa Savoy is a great find - I’ve not come across one. It uses a passport style document like its European Hamilton counterparts from that era.

I was in Warsaw, Poland, earlier this week and saw for sale in an antique shop what I believe was an identical match to your 60024-4 model.

I admire your thorough research amongst the ZentRa Savoy branch of the Hamilton family tree.
Tempus fugit; Memento mori.

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