Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

Message
Author
User avatar
GLADIATOR
Posts: 2699
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Spain - Costa Blanca

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#21 Post by GLADIATOR » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:32 pm

Thats a nice piece of Horology. Thanks for posting it
Regards
a
"We judge ourselves by what we feel capable of doing, while others judge us by what we have already done."
Visit Here:http://highercailber.com/
Adam R Harris

mrtoad
Posts: 856
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#22 Post by mrtoad » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:06 pm

Great watches, all! Envy!! :mrgreen:

I tried once, long ago, like about 2008, to get a 14K watch (not the one Mark has) on eBay. I was mostly doing PWs in those days, picking up an occasional Hamilton WW (my target price: $35). But I saw a 14K Otis and watched it. At the last minute, I decided to put in a bid and was outbid by an automatic higher bid already in from the current leader. I was frantically trying to put in a bigger number but ran out of time: it went for something like $1200.

User avatar
norm650
Posts: 1637
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:52 pm
Location: Queens, New York

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#23 Post by norm650 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:13 pm

Adam,
What a fascinating thread this is, thanks for all of the information (especially the lawsuit info!) and photos. I have never heard of, nor seen most of the watches shown by all of you guys and some of them are incredibly rare. I agree with you that the probability is very high that you guys own 75% of all Otis Hamiltons in existence!
"Don't be alarmed ladies and gentlemen. Those chains are made of chrome steel!" - Carl Denham

Norm

User avatar
gatorcpa
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:01 pm

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#24 Post by gatorcpa » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:00 pm

GLADIATOR wrote:Can any one help me out more accurate serial number year
watch serial number is G233838
I have that to a 980 (17j movement)
G101 - G669400 - 1934 to 1938

OR does anyone hace specific dates Hamilton produced the OTIS
Cause I got one - YIPPEE
Hamilton produced the Otis from 1938-41. Not in the 1941 catalog, but I have seen several with 1941 production Grade 982 movements, including Adam78's Sherwin-Williams piece and this one that arrived yesterday, Double Yippie!

Image

Here is a link with the 1939 production information on your movement, so you can always retrieve it:

http://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/r ... on/G233838

I will need to see the case citation before I buy the patent infringement argument; Hamilton rarely made models for more than a couple of years. Three years is a very long product life by Hamilton standards. There is a dealer catalog from 1938 that specifically states that the Otis was not allowed to be exported out of the USA. That would be consistent with some kind of agreement between the parties at the beginning. It may be possible that Hamilton later violated that agreement, since that notation was omitted from later catalogs.

I look forward to seeing any additional evidence you have.

Congratulations,
gatorcpa

User avatar
Nookster
Posts: 3195
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:50 am
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#25 Post by Nookster » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:46 am

mrtoad wrote:Great watches, all! Envy!! :mrgreen:

I tried once, long ago, like about 2008, to get a 14K watch (not the one Mark has) on eBay. I was mostly doing PWs in those days, picking up an occasional Hamilton WW (my target price: $35). But I saw a 14K Otis and watched it. At the last minute, I decided to put in a bid and was outbid by an automatic higher bid already in from the current leader. I was frantically trying to put in a bigger number but ran out of time: it went for something like $1200.
I would find that hard to believe? The hard core collectors at the time would have paid $5K plus or more. Even in 08, the golf filled models were at that price, maybe more. I know the market collapsed then, but even Byrd's and other watches were still bringing good prices. But I have to say, stranger things have occurred.
mark@vintagehamilton.com
VWF owner, moderator and Hamilton Enthusiast

User avatar
GLADIATOR
Posts: 2699
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Spain - Costa Blanca

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#26 Post by GLADIATOR » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:27 am

gatorcpa wrote:
GLADIATOR wrote:Can any one help me out more accurate serial number year
watch serial number is G233838
I have that to a 980 (17j movement)
G101 - G669400 - 1934 to 1938

OR does anyone hace specific dates Hamilton produced the OTIS
Cause I got one - YIPPEE
Hamilton produced the Otis from 1938-41. Not in the 1941 catalog, but I have seen several with 1941 production Grade 982 movements, including Adam78's Sherwin-Williams piece and this one that arrived yesterday, Double Yippie!

Image

Here is a link with the 1939 production information on your movement, so you can always retrieve it:

http://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/r ... on/G233838

I will need to see the case citation before I buy the patent infringement argument; Hamilton rarely made models for more than a couple of years. Three years is a very long product life by Hamilton standards. There is a dealer catalog from 1938 that specifically states that the Otis was not allowed to be exported out of the USA. That would be consistent with some kind of agreement between the parties at the beginning. It may be possible that Hamilton later violated that agreement, since that notation was omitted from later catalogs.

I look forward to seeing any additional evidence you have.

Congratulations,
gatorcpa
Hi
How coincidental is that.
I appreciate more evidence is needed, I know i found stuff years ago, just need to revisit it.
I will also write to the curator at JLC
That said two facts are without doubt.
The original contract forbid anyone but those three companies from supplying movements. also would Hamilton really drop an icon piece that has and continues to this day neatly 100 yrs later to be JLC BEST seller.
Everyone knows Jaeger by reverso as they know Carties by Santos.

Thanks EVERYONES input and good discussion
A
"We judge ourselves by what we feel capable of doing, while others judge us by what we have already done."
Visit Here:http://highercailber.com/
Adam R Harris

User avatar
gatorcpa
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:01 pm

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#27 Post by gatorcpa » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:15 am

GLADIATOR wrote:Hi
How coincidental is that.
I appreciate more evidence is needed, I know i found stuff years ago, just need to revisit it.
I will also write to the curator at JLC
That said two facts are without doubt.
The original contract forbid anyone but those three companies from supplying movements. also would Hamilton really drop an icon piece that has and continues to this day neatly 100 yrs later to be JLC BEST seller.
Everyone knows Jaeger by reverso as they know Carties by Santos.

Thanks EVERYONES input and good discussion
A
I don't doubt for a moment that there was agreement between JLC, Movado and Tavannes. Since JLC was not active in the US at that time, it would seem silly to include the US in such an agreement. I have seen Tavannes production grade Reversos. I have never seen a Movado one outside of a prototype on a Spanish or French forum.

Remember that JLC should have collected some kind of royalty on each Otis sold. Why would they sue Hamilton and cut off that sort of revenue from a market where they weren't collecting a cent previously. Makes zero business sense to me.

I do remember seeing something years ago about there being a dispute over the patent between Mr. Chavout and JLC sometime in the late 1930's. That certainly could have had an effect on Otis production.

Hope this gives you some extra clues.
gatorcpa

User avatar
GLADIATOR
Posts: 2699
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Spain - Costa Blanca

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#28 Post by GLADIATOR » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:24 am

gatorcpa wrote:
GLADIATOR wrote:Hi
How coincidental is that.
I appreciate more evidence is needed, I know i found stuff years ago, just need to revisit it.
I will also write to the curator at JLC
That said two facts are without doubt.
The original contract forbid anyone but those three companies from supplying movements. also would Hamilton really drop an icon piece that has and continues to this day neatly 100 yrs later to be JLC BEST seller.
Everyone knows Jaeger by reverso as they know Carties by Santos.

Thanks EVERYONES input and good discussion
A
I don't doubt for a moment that there was agreement between JLC, Movado and Tavannes. Since JLC was not active in the US at that time, it would seem silly to include the US in such an agreement. I have seen Tavannes production grade Reversos. I have never seen a Movado one outside of a prototype on a Spanish or French forum.

Remember that JLC should have collected some kind of royalty on each Otis sold. Why would they sue Hamilton and cut off that sort of revenue from a market where they weren't collecting a cent previously. Makes zero business sense to me.

I do remember seeing something years ago about there being a dispute over the patent between Mr. Chavout and JLC sometime in the late 1930's. That certainly could have had an effect on Otis production.

Hope this gives you some extra clues.
gatorcpa
All you say makes sense, and without any evidence, I can not confirm or deny
Tavannes was the main supplier to JLC till 1933 (2 yrs) until JLC had their own movement. You can tell their movement as it has an indirect sweep seconds hand.
Even when Patek Philippe launched a 'Reverso' it was manufactured by Jaeger and dial marked Patek Philippe. I think three were made in 18kt and Patek own 2 of them!!
Maybe Chavout sued Hamilton cause maybe he never received a royalty.
I am going to research it
Thanks again
a
"We judge ourselves by what we feel capable of doing, while others judge us by what we have already done."
Visit Here:http://highercailber.com/
Adam R Harris

User avatar
hamiltonelectric
Posts: 883
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:40 am

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#29 Post by hamiltonelectric » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:43 am

Nookster wrote:
mrtoad wrote:it went for something like $1200.
I would find that hard to believe?
Same here. in 1995 I owned the watch Mark now has. I later sold it to the intermediate owner. I got $6500 back then. About 5 years ago I missed out on a fresh-from-the-sock-drawer 14K Otis at the Daytona show because I couldn't bring myself to pay the $10K firm asking price. (I was incredibly stupid!!!) Literally the second I put it down someone grabbed it, reached into his bag, and gave the seller $10K in cash. I heard that it changed hands several times in the few weeks after that and ultimately, after some minimal cleanup and overhaul, sold for around $20K, I don't know to whom. (That one was unengraved.)

Those are the only two 14 Otis I have ever heard of.

User avatar
GLADIATOR
Posts: 2699
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Spain - Costa Blanca

Re: Jaeger-LeCoultre versus Hamilton - a reverso tale.

#30 Post by GLADIATOR » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:53 am

just wrote to the curator Heritage Department of Jaeger-LeCoultre (Le Sentier)

Lets see if he can add any info.
I will also search Hamilton archives here.
That is what Horology is all about.
Fantastic stuff
Regards
"We judge ourselves by what we feel capable of doing, while others judge us by what we have already done."
Visit Here:http://highercailber.com/
Adam R Harris

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest