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 Post subject: Most Significant Seiko ????
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:29 pm 
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OK, it got asked on another forum ... that I'm NOT a member of ...

What (in your opinion) is the most historically significant Seiko???

we got a link to go to to get some ideas as well!!

http://www.seikowatches.com/heritage/worlds_first.html

but as this is a VINTAGE forum where many watches talked about are 70 or 100 years old, that link is a little too "junior" to be truly representative of the entire "Seiko" [Hattori Corp.] historical picture.

I'll add one of mine:

Seiko Marvel intro'd in 1956. Why the Marvel??

Views of Marvel representatives:
http://seikoholics.yuku.com/sreply/188/Seiko-Marvel#.VJTsKcEY

Some info on WHY Marvel is significant to me:
http://seikoholics.yuku.com/topic/821/Some-Attributes-of-Movement-Quality#.VJTsecEY

See the second post in that thread @

"Other criteria:
I. Competition results and other historical record:"

Example:

'Marvel was also put to the test within Japan: "In 1957, it was also the first Japanese watch to win the men's wristwatch division of a
contest held by the Japan branch of the American Horological Society, surpassing non-Japanese models such as the Omega. The Marvel lived up to its name and helped earn Japanese timepieces a reputation for excellence that resounded all over the world, even as far as Switzerland.'

So - your turn!!


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 Post subject: Re: Most Significant... Hints needed??
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:34 pm 
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OK then, here's some hints:

Astronomical

Grand

6139

Astron

.... there's more, but I don't want to spoil your party :P

OK, there's Yahoo & Google to go with on those :lol: Go for it!! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Most Significant Seiko ????
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:55 pm 
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Well, not to be too much of a wise acre, but for me, the most historically significant Seiko is the one my dad wore in Vietnam.
It's a '68 Sportsmatic. Still runs great, and Iove the weathered "tropical" dial. :D

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Most Significant Seiko ????
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Clyde wrote:
Well, not to be too much of a wise acre, but for me, the most historically significant Seiko is the one my dad wore in Vietnam.
It's a '68 Sportsmatic...]


Well, I'm not going to criticize or kid you... because "History" can indeed be very personal.

The Vietnam War was a big deal for me too!! I was actively trying to NOT go there!! :lol:

Hmmm, however ... I've ended up in one of it's neighbors (roughly speaking) ... the Philippines. Coincidentally, my Dad was here in "the big one" ... WWII!! Of course, this was also a big "staging area" for Vietnam with our (USA) big bases here in those days...

OK, thanks for playing :P Your prize is .... hmmm??? A pat on the back for the holidays ;)


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 Post subject: ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:01 pm 
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What, no other ideas?? :?

OR ... is this NOT the type of post that folks here like to discuss :?: {NOT being sarcastic here, just want to know so I can do other kinds of things in future ... that may actually generate more interest for/with you all} :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Most Significant Seiko ????
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:32 pm 
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Funny, I just bought a 1968 Sportsmatic on eBay. It doesn't run, but I wanted it for the signed bracelet for another Seiko. I have 5 or so Seikos and really like the quality.
I'll post some pics of some of my other Seikos when I get a chance.
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Thanks squash61!! + Quality issues:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:29 pm 
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Seiko (and other Japanese brand) vintage mechanical quality does impress me too! Aside from the "well-known" hi-end among Japanese collectors, other marques impress as well ... go below the highest quality tiers in Seiko [various Grand Seiko & King Seiko] and you find amazing quality at sometimes quite reasonable prices in the used market ... think of the Presmatic models I've bought in the last couple years!! About US$100 in some cases for something that should easily qualify for Chronometer certification!!

Citizen, Orient, and even Ricoh had some amazing pieces in the '60s and '70s. Will show you all some of them someday, but that's for another thread!!

In the meantime, anyone else want to try their hand at naming a "Most Significant Seiko" :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Most Significant Seiko ????
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:26 am 
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How about the Arnie?? Or is it too new?


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 Post subject: Re: Too New ????
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:21 pm 
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leibo wrote:
How about the Arnie?? Or is it too new?


Well, the way I'm interpreting this question, age of the watch model doesn't matter ... new, vintage, they're both OK. What matters is that you come up with a reason for saying "significant" ... what is your reason for naming this model?? I'm more interested in the "thinking" behind the choice than the age/era of the choice...


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 Post subject: Re: Most Significant Seiko ????
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:28 pm 
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The Arnie was a watch that my brother bought back in the 80s, and I always admired it. I think it became more popular after Schwarzenegger wore it in his movies. I liked it because of it's rugged appearance, analog / digital display, and large size (it was definitely ahead of it's time on size). Fast forward quite a few years, and it seems to have a bit of a cult following. I have to admit, I'm not well versed in Seikos, but it's one that I always admired. I even talked my brother into parting with it.


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 Post subject: Well, I'll give a try here...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:19 pm 
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I don't think it's quite practical to give a "one and only, clear winner" when it comes to Seiko ... but I'll give an example here that I consider a prime candidate for a "top 10" list covering the entire history of Seiko WRIST watches.

The Laurel!!

On another forum a question was asked a few years ago regarding which is the longest running model name. the J-LC Reverso was suggested as the "winner" since it was started in the 1930s (I think) and is still made today.

I answered that there was one other that could qualify even better, the Seiko Laurel.

Now the problem with the Laurel is that it hasn't been made continuously by Seiko through all the years of it's history, there were some lapses, years when no Laurel models were made. So, depending on how the question is actually phrased, Laurel may NOT qualify.

BUT ... in any case, here is "The Laurel" as I know it:

Remember that (originally), the "Laurel" was a brand (or "badge"?) of the Hattori Co. while "Seiko" and "Seikosha" were separate brands that were introduced much later than "Laurel". Ultimately, the main brand of Hattori Co. became "Seiko" with various "families" or "lines" of watches subordinate to it.

The First: 1913 LAUREL

This was the first model wristwatch from Hattori. They were housed in a small 26.2mm diameter "double case" and were meant for both men and women (as a small pocket watch when removed from the band and outer case. They came in a variety of styles. The crown was at 3 o'clock requiring some adaptation of the A. Schild 7 jewel movement. The dials were porcelain (and likely NOT made by Hattori), and the case silver (0.900), with nickel on the back side of the outer hinge case (in some models). Genuine cases have the "SKS" mark inside the outline of a Japanese-style folding fan.

The main problem for the collector, according to one source, is determining which are legitimate dials & cases on the used specimens now sold!

It is also believed that this is the first Seikosha product "that contained components manufactured entirely in-house". I assume this to mean, all movement parts as well as the casing parts. It is however, interesting to note that a Kelek [Swiss company that was taken over by Breitling appx 1997] related website indicated that the Japanese market was important "early on" and even through World War II (WWII). It specifically mentioned that they had a "deal with Seiko predecessor Hattori"; Kelek sold movements to other firms as well as made watches under it's own label. This fact may imply that even if the Laurel were made completely "in house", that Swiss imports did continue to play a role in Hattori/Seikosha/Seiko products throughout a significant part of the 1st 1/2 of the 20th century despite Hattori's drive to do more and more in-house as time went on.

Typical examples:

Image
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Image

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2. Laurel ca. 1948

Image

The above picture from "Domestic Watch Series, 12; Pre-War/Post-War Edition," by Yoshio Nagao and Toshiki Mori. (Tombow Publishers, Osaka, 2002).

3. ca. late 1950s -> 1960s

According to one source, the Laurel was revived in 1958 after production of earlier Laurel models was ended in the early 1940s. However, this contradicts the attribution to 1948 as the production date of the model preceeding this entry (above):

Model 14025 ca. 1960 shown below
Image
Image

4. Laurel - Alpinist

The 1st model of "Alpinist" was introduced underneath the Laurel "family" in the early 1960s. Later models of "Alpinist" were then moved to the Champion "family".

There are, of course, more modern models of Laurel made by "Seiko" (as the corporate name is today, no longer "Hattori") but I will not cover them as they are not my area of "expertise". :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Most Significant Seiko ????
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:22 pm 
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I would have to classify these as the most significant Seikos to me as they are the only ones I own, lol:

Attachment:
photo.JPG
photo.JPG [ 77.51 KiB | Viewed 3527 times ]

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 Post subject: Skyliner
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:14 pm 
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retroworx wrote:
I would have to classify these as the most significant Seikos to me as they are the only ones I own, lol:


Skyliner ... nice looking watches!!

As I've heard it, they are the replacement for the Liner, and somewhat of a "cost reduction" effort.

I have a gold-filled 23j variant of Liner ... was trying to find the pics I have in a photo server ... taking too long & I've got stuff to do in the "real world", so - I'll have to try again later to show you. :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Skyliner
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:42 am 
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Ninja01 wrote:
...
I have a gold-filled 23j variant of Liner ... was trying to find the pics I have in a photo server ... taking too long & I've got stuff to do in the "real world", so - I'll have to try again later to show you. :cry:


Well, I can get the thumbnails to show, but the large pics seem to be gone or malfunctioning ...

Image
Image
Image

link to a large image & not showing on my system, can you see it on yours??
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Skyliner
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:45 am 
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Ninja01 wrote:
link to a large image & not showing on my system, can you see it on yours??

Nope. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Skyliner / Strange
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:04 pm 
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retroworx wrote:
Ninja01 wrote:
link to a large image & not showing on my system, can you see it on yours??

Nope. :(


Hmm ... tried the large pix of a bunch of the other watches in that album of mine & they show. For some reason all the large pics of this particular watch just come up blank. Oh well, I tried...

============================================

So, anyone else want to try their hand at the "Most Significant" game?? ;) ... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Well, I'll give a try here...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:43 am 
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Ninja01 wrote:
2. Laurel ca. 1948

Image

That's a nice looking watch by any standard. The long lugs make it particularly graceful looking. The styling looks more like the late '20s or early '30s than 1948, but maybe the fashions were different in Japan.

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 Post subject: Re: dating of Laurel
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:30 pm 
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afire wrote:
...
That's a nice looking watch by any standard. The long lugs make it particularly graceful looking. The styling looks more like the late '20s or early '30s than 1948, but maybe the fashions were different in Japan.


Well, I can only go by what the authors stated. But, I suppose in any watch making & wearing country ... we see a multiplicity of styles over the entire product line for any particular era; especially as time goes on, there are more "old fashioned" choices for a retro look :lol:

I can only say about Japan that I've heard they were indeed conservative in their style choices. In fact, Seiko did NOT produce an automatic Grand Seiko for half a decade AFTER the introduction of the manual-wind Grand ... and the reason I've heard in the Japanese sites is that they were concerned the "high tier" watch buyer would not accept an automatic in a high-quality dress watch, they were too "old fashioned" to accept that "modern" idea :roll:


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 Post subject: Another candidate ... GS VFA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:07 pm 
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One of these was talked about at another forum recently, a post showed a sale of the hand-wind implementation (45 family movement) of a Grand Seiko [GS] Very Fine Adjusted [VFA] ...

http://wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/6859/rare-seiko-gs-fine-adjusted

BUT ... they got one thing wrong [AFAIK], which I refuted in an article in a forum I'm on ...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/642233/message/1423023793/GS+VFA+vs.+Astronomical+Observatory+Chronometer

Specifically, someone in the 1st article/post confused the VFA with the Astronomical Observatory Chronometer which was the GS model (in the 45 family) that was indeed used in the Swiss Observatory Trials in the late '60s.

You can see my arguments refuting that claim using data from another article written years ago by a Japanese expert in Seikos.

Here's some pics though of representative models in hand-wind 45 VFA and 45 Astronomical:

The 45 VFA, a limited production model, but still a production, not competition, watch with "ultra high precision" for a mechanical:
Image
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There were 2 movements in this VFA grade, 4580 (time only) and 4582 (H/M/S + Date)

The "Astronomical", an actual competition watch that was "packaged" and sold to the public in limited numbers:
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And, courtesy of Kobayashi Seiya [KSeiya], the chart of movement standards for the various Grand Seiko "grades":
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another bit of proof that a VFA is NOT an "Astronomical" :geek:

OK, by the way: the "45" hand-wind family was a product of the Daini "division" of "Seiko" [Hattori Corp.]. Seikosha "division" did their own implementation of Grand Seikos, including the "high precision" end of that family, but they did automatic wind models in the "61 movement family" ...

a 6186 [autowind + Day + Date]
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and a 6185 [autowind + Date]
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Seiko made a big deal about the accuracy grade [Mean Daily Rate or MDR] and the accuracy guarantee that came with the watch for a hefty price tag ... but interestingly, you could get this same accuracy and about the same guarantee from a rather "pedestrian" (price-wise) Swiss watch of the same era!!

Back with more later ... I'll keep you guessing which one that was!!

...

OK - ready?? Here's the "hint" :lol:

Image

and
Image

same accuracy rate for MDR (not sure of other characteristics though) and MUCH Smaller price-tag!! :shock: :o


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 Post subject: Platinum cased 1st Gen. Grand Seiko 3180
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:37 pm 
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OK, here's a nomination for a quite significant Seiko... may not be the most significant Seiko in history, but it's up there in the top 10% anyway 8-)

I saw this posting about a very rare platinum (850) cased cal. 3180 Grand Seiko. Even more impressive is that it came with original box, hang-tags, and the Chronometer Certificate from Hattori!!

See it at this link:

http://www.thewatchsite.com/21-japanese-watch-discussion-forum/172922-unboxing-platinum-first-model-grand-seiko.html

As the new owner said in his post there, "almost-mythical 1963 first-model Grand Seiko in platinum, one of my holiest of grails"... and I don't doubt it!! Never mind Platinum, even solid-gold cased mens Seikos of the '50s & '60s are quite hard to find!


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