Waltham 6/0 – C Model No. 621 Sweep Second Calendar

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441victor
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Waltham 6/0 – C Model No. 621 Sweep Second Calendar

#1 Post by 441victor » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:19 pm

Using my usual dumb luck search methods, I stumbled on a second Waltham calendar movement while looking for 6/0 balance staffs. There was a relatively recent BIN with no ID other that Waltham movement but staring out of the listing was the unmistakable round ended hour hand of a Sweep Second Calendar/Chronodate.

Image

If you missed my post about the first Chronodate I found a year ago on WTF, this is a semi-mythical movement only known to most collectors from a page in the Waltham material catalog.
Waltham 621 001.jpg
Waltham 621 001.jpg (42.8 KiB) Viewed 2790 times
It’s based on the 21j 6/0 – C movement with extra plates and wheels on the dial side to drive an indexed day pointer mounted around the outside of the hour wheel.

Image

The material catalog has two different dials with the calendar track. This movement has the smaller 6020 A dial and all blue hands. The first movement I acquired has a very large (30.65mm) dial numbered 6015 A and has a red sweep second hand and a red tip on the date pointer.

Image

Having two movements of course adds to the number of unanswered questions. The material catalog lists the movement starting at no. 32460425 going to 33369300. The small dial movement is no. 32460311 which is a few movements before that range but still from the same 10,000 run of 21j movements. The large dial movement is no. 32095009 and is listed in the NAWCC Gray Book data in a run of 17j movements and seems to come at the start of 6/0-C production. It also has a nicer finish with gold filled lettering and no machining marks left on the bridges.

Image

The largest mystery involves the fact I have movements from 1944 and 1946 but still have no idea how they were cased. I’ve searched the web and the only evidence of a complete pointer date model is this picture.
Waltham Pointer Date.jpg
Waltham Pointer Date.jpg (35.7 KiB) Viewed 2790 times
I don’t recognize the W on the dial. It isn’t the wide red W that I associate with Waltham’s post American period. The style of the case looks to me to be from the 60’s or 70’s and there is no dial like this in the 58 material catalog. That leads me to believe it’s from a later date and probably contains a Swiss movement maybe the similar to the Benrus calendar model.

So another rare movement and another request for any information or pics of a Waltham Calendar model. Given the number and quality of the collectors attracted to our site maybe one or two will finally pop up.

Joel

441victor
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:56 pm
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Waltham 6/0 – C Model No. 621 Sweep Second Calendar

#2 Post by 441victor » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:20 pm

I’m still having no luck finding pics of the original Waltham models that used this movement. Further reading in the materials catalog uncovered that the two dials had different names. The large dial was the Chronodate and the smaller was called the Recorder. Since the Recorder was a more normal diameter for it’s period, I thought I might find a period case to put it in to give it some wrist time and see if the date complication would work well in real time. One Waltham model, the Sheraton was produced throughout the post-war years. I’ve seen them in ygf and solid gold but it’s one of my favorite Walthams especially with its original dial.

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I’m not sure that all models that used this Keystone case were called Sheraton’s. I’ve seen it with a 6/0-B movement from 1944, 6/0-C’s, with 17 and 21 jewels, into the late 40’s and with the 6/0-D that Waltham used until it ended US production.

A little cleaning and polishing and the recorder fits my spare case like it was made for it and makes a very handsome watch.

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So until I find and original case for this or the Chronodate, at least one US made pointer date will tick along on my wrist.

Image

Joel

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indyago
Posts: 1391
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:59 am

Re: Waltham 6/0 – C Model No. 621 Sweep Second Calendar

#3 Post by indyago » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:52 pm

Very interesting watches Joel! Good luck in the pursuit of the appropriate case info. In the meantime, you have a very nice combo!
Rob

"Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)

Sealtest

Re: Waltham 6/0 – C Model No. 621 Sweep Second Calendar

#4 Post by Sealtest » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:46 pm

I made an account just to help with this. I own a Waltham 6/0-c with the sweeping hand. Unfortunately the staff is busted (I'm brand new to working on watches so it'll be a while if I ever learn how to fix this). Anyways, here is a picture. Hopefully this is what you're looking for.






441victor wrote:Using my usual dumb luck search methods, I stumbled on a second Waltham calendar movement while looking for 6/0 balance staffs. There was a relatively recent BIN with no ID other that Waltham movement but staring out of the listing was the unmistakable round ended hour hand of a Sweep Second Calendar/Chronodate.

Image

If you missed my post about the first Chronodate I found a year ago on WTF, this is a semi-mythical movement only known to most collectors from a page in the Waltham material catalog.
The attachment Waltham 621 001.jpg is no longer available
It’s based on the 21j 6/0 – C movement with extra plates and wheels on the dial side to drive an indexed day pointer mounted around the outside of the hour wheel.

Image

The material catalog has two different dials with the calendar track. This movement has the smaller 6020 A dial and all blue hands. The first movement I acquired has a very large (30.65mm) dial numbered 6015 A and has a red sweep second hand and a red tip on the date pointer.

Image

Having two movements of course adds to the number of unanswered questions. The material catalog lists the movement starting at no. 32460425 going to 33369300. The small dial movement is no. 32460311 which is a few movements before that range but still from the same 10,000 run of 21j movements. The large dial movement is no. 32095009 and is listed in the NAWCC Gray Book data in a run of 17j movements and seems to come at the start of 6/0-C production. It also has a nicer finish with gold filled lettering and no machining marks left on the bridges.

Image

The largest mystery involves the fact I have movements from 1944 and 1946 but still have no idea how they were cased. I’ve searched the web and the only evidence of a complete pointer date model is this picture.
The attachment Waltham Pointer Date.jpg is no longer available
I don’t recognize the W on the dial. It isn’t the wide red W that I associate with Waltham’s post American period. The style of the case looks to me to be from the 60’s or 70’s and there is no dial like this in the 58 material catalog. That leads me to believe it’s from a later date and probably contains a Swiss movement maybe the similar to the Benrus calendar model.

So another rare movement and another request for any information or pics of a Waltham Calendar model. Given the number and quality of the collectors attracted to our site maybe one or two will finally pop up.

Joel
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waltham1.jpg
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waltham2.jpg (41.13 KiB) Viewed 630 times

441victor
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:56 pm
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Waltham 6/0 – C Model No. 621 Sweep Second Calendar

#5 Post by 441victor » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:21 pm

Welcome to VWF and thanks for the reply. As you can see all my old posts have been wrecked thanks to my picture hosting site deciding to be greedy. I'll repost the images I had here. Its rare to see this movement and this is one of the few sources of information. I'm always frustrated when my searches return empty pictures.

User avatar
timeliz
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:14 pm

Re: Waltham 6/0 – C Model No. 621 Sweep Second Calendar

#6 Post by timeliz » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:35 pm

Hi, Joel.

Sorry to hear about your greedy photo hosting site.
I use flickr and love it. One terrabyte & free, free, free! :D
You may have to put up with some ads, but free!...and if you don't like ads, there are ways to avoid them.

441victor
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:56 pm
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Waltham 6/0 – C Model No. 621 Sweep Second Calendar

#7 Post by 441victor » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:06 pm

Time for a recap of my Chronodate movement posts. From the back, the first pointer date movement I won on Ebay looks like an "ordinary" 6/0-C center seconds grade 621 S.S. if you can use that word.

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The dial and hands strongly indicate otherwise and when you look underneath the dial things get really interesting.

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The works of the calendar complication consist of an additional plate fastened to the pillar plate under the dial and a gear train topped by a calendar wheel which revolves around the cannon pinon.

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The calendar wheel is turned by a pin on the 24 hour wheel assembly and held in position by an index spring. It has 31 "teeth" and the pointer moves around once a month so you have to manually advance it at the end of 28 and 30 day months.

Image

With all this going on it easy to forget, until you pull out the crown to set the time. Oh Yeah! The second hand stops because it’s all built around Waltham’s hacking design inherited from their 6/0 1942 military movement.

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Here are some clips from the Waltham Material Catalog that show the numbers for the special materials, dials and hands for the calendar grades.

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Image

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Lastly, here is the second movement that I acquired with the smaller Recorder model dial and hands.

Image

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This dial is the same size as those for the Sheridan models.

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I’ve taken advantage of that fact and installed it in a spare case in order to enjoy wearing it. Until I can find an example of its real home and bring it back to fully restored condition.

Image

Sadly this seems to be the most complete resource for information about this amazing movement. This and the grade 6/0-D shock resistant grades were a last effort from the Waltham engineers who had to know their great company was near it's end. Sorry that I've neglected it for so long. Joel

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