Crown pops out question?

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Crown pops out question?

#1 Post by semroc » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:31 am

Hello all. The crown won't stay in on my Illinois. It is stuck in the set position. I can push it in to wind, then it pops right out. Is this the correct screw used for adjustment? Any tips on how to fix it are appreciated. It's a really cool looking Jolly Roger. Thank you.
0721181437b.jpg (906.76 KiB) Viewed 1002 times

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Re: Crown pops out question?

#2 Post by JerseyMo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:36 pm

have to checked the dial side to be sure that the set lever and clutch gears are engaged?
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Re: Crown pops out question?

#3 Post by mrtoad » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:44 pm

The movement you're showing is 3/0 size. The problem you describe is typical of wristwatches in 3/0 size (not just Illinois).

You're probably used to smaller wristwatch movements in which there is a setting lever that engages a groove on the stem. The little bump on the lever holds the stem in place and there is a detent at the other end of the lever that holds the mechanism in either winding position or setting position. The setscrew that serves as the pivot for the lever can be adjusted to release the stem.

That's not how the typical 3/0 movement is built: Such movements were typically ones originally designed for pocket watches, These movements use a stem that is held in place by a sleeve in the case, and the movement has a spring-loaded setting mechanism that pushes back on the stem. The detent on these mechanisms is provided by the interaction of the sleeve and a bump on the stem. There is no screw on the movement that has anything to do with the stem.

The problem you describe is a result of how the sleeve is made for these wristwatch cases. You're probably used to the sleeves on pocket watches: the sleeve is a machined piece of steel with springy fingers on one end to engage the stem, and it is threaded to screw down inside the pendant tube. Except for some early trench watches, wristwatch cases aren't made that way. For your Jolly Roger, the sleeve is a little piece of stamped metal that is formed into a tube. It looks like a grommet that hasn't been set or maybe a derby hat with an open crown. One end of the tube is turned out as a flange that is sandwiched between the movement and case to hold the sleeve in the pendant tube. The other end is turned in, and this is supposed to engage the sleeve. If you take the movement out, you'll see that the stem stays with the case, just like in a pocket watch. If you hold the stem and unscrew the crown, the stem and sleeve will fall out of the tube to the inside of the case.

The problem with these sleeves are that they aren't very strong. The tube is split down the side; it's supposed to be springy, but it's also weak. And where it is turned in, it eventually wears and doesn't hold the stem. That's what you're experiencing. The sleeve is still able to keep the stem from falling out, but it can't hold the stem in against the spring in the movement so that the watch will stay in setting position.

The best cure is to find a new sleeve. They're had to come by, but occasionally I've sacrificed a cheap generic case to get a sleeve for a good watch. I've also occasionally used a closing punch in my staking set to try to close up the end of a sleeve that engages the stem, but this has had only mixed results (sometimes I just crush the sleeve).

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Re: Crown pops out question?

#4 Post by semroc » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:43 pm

Thanks JerseyMo, and mrtoad. Mrtoad you provided the answer and why it happens. I appreciate that. I do have one other 3/0 movement I could try to use to fix it. I'm on the fence about doing it myself as I make watches worse about fifty percent of the time. So we'll see. Thanks again.

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Re: Crown pops out question?

#5 Post by JerryT » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:40 pm

Here are a couple of views of how these look apart and together --
wwsleeve.jpg (79.54 KiB) Viewed 974 times
wwsleeve2.jpg (76.4 KiB) Viewed 974 times
The sleeves come in different diameters and different lengths, so a sleeve from a donor watch may or may not work properly in a different case.

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Re: Crown pops out question?

#6 Post by semroc » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:03 pm

Thanks JerryT. That helps a lot. Much appreciated.

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Re: Crown pops out question?

#7 Post by semroc » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:35 pm

I have received a donor, but the sleeve is really in there good. Do you use a hammer and a punch to punch it out? Here's the Jolly I'm working on. I'm pretty stoked about it!
raw.jpg (526.44 KiB) Viewed 792 times
Thanks for your help, and input.

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Re: Crown pops out question?

#8 Post by 441victor » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:07 pm

That much force risks breaking one of the leaves that hold the stem in position as they pop over the tiny bulge in the middle. They are hardened to make them springy and are brittle as a result. I would pry on the inside edge of the sleeve that you can see in Jerry's second pic. To install, hold the stem's square section in a pin vice and screw it into the sleeve until it passes the threaded section. Pushing it in, I have snapped off a leaf. These are getting so hard to find, it hurts me when I break one. Most 100 piece sets of stems you find on ebay, only contain a handful of reverse sleeves. The rest are the regular screw in types. Joel

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Re: Crown pops out question?

#9 Post by GJH » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:40 am

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Re: Crown pops out question?

#10 Post by Gabe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:07 am

I just wrote in in a separate thread about what may be this very same issue.

At ... 16&t=12235, I wrote that my watch guy says I need to find a stem sleeve for an 0 size Illinois.

The stem will not stay in.

This page ... is/4795153 identifies the watch as a Grade 24 3/0s Model 3.

I called Otto Frei and Esslinger and neither carries these materials.

My question was can I use a Grade 24 3/0s Model 4 as a donor movement for the stem sleeve? ... is/4993999

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